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Copying Hamas Model in Kashmir

The ideal scenario would be to convert it to a ‘soft IB’.

Both sides of Kashmiri residents can access the other side.
Why just the Kashmir? Why not the entire border?

But the mistrust and the disagreements are too big for any headway. Last time, it was India that had displayed the goodwill when, Vajpayee took the bus to Lahore. At that very moment Musharraf was scheming and planning Kargil.
Now no Indian politician can take a chance like that again. And The Establishment, doesn’t want the borders to cool, as that would put a question mark over their existence.

After the removal of 370, even slim chances of any headway seem remote. Hope that peace prevails for some time, when the powers can think with a cool head and make some progress.

Trying to recreate Hamas kind of action, as propagated by few FMs, might bring doom of unimaginable scale.
 
I just showed you the history of the "Jewish model" which you wanted to follow. Sounds quite similar to the "Hamas model".

Study their history I’ve said ! Not a part of it.
 
Study their history I’ve said ! Not a part of it.
So you have no rebuttal. Got it. It would be more honourable to concede defeat, alas what can one expect from someone who wants to follow the "Israeli model" of terrorism.
 
Why just the Kashmir? Why not the entire border?

But the mistrust and the disagreements are too big for any headway. Last time, it was India that had displayed the goodwill when, Vajpayee took the bus to Lahore. At that very moment Musharraf was scheming and planning Kargil.
Now no Indian politician can take a chance like that again. And The Establishment, doesn’t want the borders to cool, as that would put a question mark over their existence.

After the removal of 370, even slim chances of any headway seem remote. Hope that peace prevails for some time, when the powers can think with a cool head and make some progress.

Trying to recreate Hamas kind of action, as propagated by few FMs, might bring doom of unimaginable scale.
The same can be said of Siachen, no? Pakistani politicians showed goodwill but India invaded Siachen. Or India’s direct role in East Pakistan.

And then Kargil happened, which India is right to have qualms about.

The issue is you Indians have qualms about Pakistan, but it’s fair when things are instigated by India.

The removal of 370, means even lesser chance of peace. The proposal of a soft IB becomes even more remote.

The establishment has been a villain for Pakistan’s case but a Hindutva / Akhand Bharat is no less on the Indian side. They both have been feeding off the hatred.

Anyways, I do not want it to be a whataboutism or a tit for tat discussion.

All in all, I would like to see the LoC turn into a soft IB. The Kashmiris can live in peace. While the rest of Indian and Pakistanis can get visas to visit each other’s country.
 
All in all, I would like to see the LoC turn into a soft IB. The Kashmiris can live in peace. While the rest of Indian and Pakistanis can get visas to visit each other’s country.
Indeed, but there are forces on both sides that would do anything to sabotage such a scenario unfolding. Annexation anxiety, fear of militant infiltration.. As a first step we need to get some CBMs going and and test the waters. Native Kashmiris would be happy with such an arrangement if they can ever get it done.
 
same can be said of Siachen, no? Pakistani politicians showed goodwill but India invaded Siachen.
Yes. That point is taken.
Or India’s direct role in East Pakistan.
East Pakistan was your own failure. Your politicians and the Army messed it up big time.
And then Kargil happened, which India is right to have qualms about.
If Kargil had happened as an independent event, then I wouldn’t have pointed it out. It was planned by Musharraf fully knowing the peace attempts going on, at that very moment. That is why it is bigger betrayal than what it may have been.
The establishment has been a villain for Pakistan’s case but a Hindutva / Akhand Bharat is no less on the Indian side.
Hindtuva has come in now. It was very mild under Vajpayee. Did Paksiatn grab the opportunities presented before Modi came to power? What was done by Paksiatn in 60 odd years to achieve peace. Nothing. Weak policies of Congress governments were exploited to further the insurgency. That time is gone and may not present itself again.

Akhand Bharat is a jumla for domestic audience. I am sure that your planners know it’s value or lack of it. It may be used to create threads here and fret over it. Nothing more.
 
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So you have no rebuttal. Got it. It would be more honourable to concede defeat, alas what can one expect from someone who wants to follow the "Israeli model" of terrorism.

I can rebute yours point easily. But it is not worth. Study their history and you will understand by yourself.
 
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I’ve never said or implied to be Zionist ! But having worked with them, I understand how they work. They are clever, they are united, how they educate their children etc… all things that we Muslims don’t !
Yes I agreed with you, what I meant was we should take inspiration from it on how we run Pakistan because they are similar stated, we are the Islamic counterpart to their Jewish one

If Pakistan can truly emulate it, it would benefit significantly
 
Maybe reading cost you lot ! But it worth it !

Read all my comments and especially all the replies I’ve received !
@HGV
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Wisdom is something very expensive
 
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Is that the meaning of planning and coordinating? Is this your deduction - A Think Tank?

Which part? While we are at it, please elaborate, what was planned well. And well means, where, objectives were achieved. Military, political, narrative or anything that can be called a success. And don’t try monosyllables like the earlier comments. Because they might sell to your population, but wouldn’t cut ice here.
All of it and mentioning a title repeatedly doesn't cut ice here also.
 
That would have been nice, but what I mean is what work was done on the ground to see if the population was willing to actively participate. Not days in advance but weeks if not months or even years in advance.
One major issue is that without Pakistani support, the armed struggle part of Kashmir movement doesnt head anywhere. This should NOT be the case. Can you see the same in Palestine. Unless hamas or hizbullah crack things up, nothing moves and even then they commit blunders. So the first part of any resistance is dedication and effort of the local population to stand up to the occupiers by any means necessary on their own, without external support, and if the external support comes then welcome it, instead of running like confused goats here and there. The 90's insurgency in J&K had mujahideen from different countries who wanted to fight for Kashmir after the Afghan war. These were settled in FATA and the next stop was Lal masjid, before continuing on to LOC. I dont have stats of ratio of kashmiri origin muahideen vs other ethnic/nationals, but Kashmir struggle shouldnt have died down after 2000's, while Kargil being a golden opportunity for internal struggle.

Coming to Ops Gibraltar, while many say that Ayub saw China thrash India in 62 while Pakistan made Indian Army run from Rann from Kutch, a different motive was also there. The timing, the lack of support from external powers (e.g. USA) and the fear that India will strike again in some other sector like it tried in Rann of Kutch. So the operation was a mixture of factors. Secondly, for any military plan or any plan in general, there will be nay sayers, there will be ones who oppose it and call it a failure from the start and when the Ops does fail, they will stand as heroes and yell out, "Told you so". This happens everywhere in the world. What if Kargil succeeded ? such people would never come forward and say hey I said so from the start that it will be failure.

The Army in 1960's was under strength in all formations. I remember reading and hearing that in 65 war, only one S&T unit was full strength with its trucks and pickups, probably 55 or more, all the other units had 25-30 trucks to support an entire division. Same with tanks, artillery and AD. Ammunition was very short and getting ammo to battlefield was another issue due to lack of transport. In Ops Gibraltar, the situation was the same, few men, few volunteers, few weapons, few radio sets, some ammo, no reserve, no worthwhile exfil plan. But if you look at any Ops undertaken by Pakistan Army against a bigger Indian Army, the chances of success were always slim, even then at many places due to luck or presence of mind or some other factor, the ops would either stall the Indian Army or make them flee, but this wasn't always the case. Its only now after 2000's that most formations of Pakistan Army stand at full strength of men and material, the days of ad-hoc formations are gone, which basically means extra but practically, it is under strength, under equipped formation hastily formed to show boost in numbers with independent operational capability.

Ops Gibraltar was the same. No time for specific training for personnel. IA was always bigger and holding the line of defense was next to impossible. Many knew it before they went in, however sometimes under orders and sometimes volunteering, the ops went ahead. Kashmiris did what wasnt expected from them. The initial plan was to make contact with them and get them aligned with the plans. That never went well. The confused Kashmiris didn't know any better. They weren't expecting Pakistan to actually and practically get things moving for them after the 48 ceasefire, it had been 17 years. Any guerilla ops is time sensitive. Ayub knew that taking India head on was not on the cards. In defending Pakistan from Indian Army, he had some hope and that showed in 65 war, but offensive directly on the border or LOC would have been a disaster. Actually, this mentality kept going on till Kargil war and its only after Indian cold start doctrine that certain formations within Pakistan Army have been formed which are expected to take the war to India in Indian territory. On the other side, Indian Army kept sunder ji doctrine of massive elephant walk but deviated from it in past few decades. For Ayub, the big elephant that india was, attacking at from sides and in small numbers seemed the to key to some sort of success. Out numbered 1:3, or even 1:7 at some places, there wasn't much choice.

At this point in time, its interesting that India wants to create a LOC on Durand line. The reason is that just like LOC, the Durand line is not a fixed border and this thought has come from India operating consistently in Afghanistan during US invasion. After all, Durand line isn't a finalized demarcated line from Afghanistan's perspective. To make it an international border doesn't give it the value of LOC where a constant action can take place to keep Pakistan bogged down completely from both sides. Pakistan wants to make it an International border which is why fencing took place.
 
The same can be said of Siachen, no? Pakistani politicians showed goodwill but India invaded Siachen. Or India’s direct role in East Pakistan.

And then Kargil happened, which India is right to have qualms about.

The issue is you Indians have qualms about Pakistan, but it’s fair when things are instigated by India.

The removal of 370, means even lesser chance of peace. The proposal of a soft IB becomes even more remote.

The establishment has been a villain for Pakistan’s case but a Hindutva / Akhand Bharat is no less on the Indian side. They both have been feeding off the hatred.

Anyways, I do not want it to be a whataboutism or a tit for tat discussion.

All in all, I would like to see the LoC turn into a soft IB. The Kashmiris can live in peace. While the rest of Indian and Pakistanis can get visas to visit each other’s country.

If we would like to have any sensible discussion, please understand that even most of the Indian posters see this Akhand Bharat illusion as a BS dream spread by our political parties which should not get materialized. Let us leave in peace with the actual border that we have now and improve the quality of life of our people.
 
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