Over100 US air sorties confront over 300 Chinese air sorties in east China sea.

[VCheng]

And what they don’t seem to understand is that it isn’t an IQ(touted all the time by Chinese internet paid propagandists ) or resources (touted all the time) or industry(touted all the time). It’s culture - plain, out of the box thinking culture which is not part of Chinese society due to the nature of the political system and the educational environment it created in the last century. China may very well have more smarter people than America, more resources, more industrialized and so on. But if the system isn’t focused on innovation of new ideas but renovation of existing ideas then the output will always remain behind.

That isn’t to say there aren’t innovative people or innovative products out of China - but because the culture doesn’t encourage it at large these are outliers and cannot change the status quo as fast as it is done in the US. Those Chinese that are innovating many have backgrounds from US universities (where they do excel and there are many of them) and take that culture back home(but that also becomes a threat to the CCP in some cases).

All the citing of Space Shuttle failures and others simply ignore (as @Irfan Baloch rightly points out) that these were done 40 years before anyone in China ever did anything similar. I don’t consider it a judgement on the Chinese people because after being oppressed by the British for eons and then starvation the Chinese had barely begun rebuilding knowledge when Mao purged many of their brightest and lost them decades there.

Meanwhile America was busy accepting anyone including runaway Chinese scientists from Mao so long as they were willing to contribute knowledge and advance technology in the military space(and by inference the civilian sector).
I am comfortable saying most “American” ideas aren’t American. Because America is a land of immigrants - its rocketry is began at home but was advanced by Germans(for that matter so did the Russians) , it learned about jet engines from the brits and descendants of immigrants built everything from Infrared sensors to the internet. But that is what makes America unique - it takes in the world… including Chinese who built the American railroad’s foundation and are a part and participle of American life along with people from all over the globe.
In a way, China isn’t competing with America - it is competing with everyone else around and world and its own sons/daughters. So long as America has that character, it will be unbeatable. Russia had the right idea to try and break that social framework by pushing xenophobic ideas through American social networks - that has stalled for now.

So while that 40-50 year gap has been reduced greatly by China to maybe a 10-20 year gap. But it will remain because at the end that new innovation hasn’t come out yet as that culture change still is stymied by the system. It is visible in places like E-hang and other companies that took initial ideas from the west and really made working products around them. It’s visible in the applications of ideas in transportation and infrastructure that were thought up 20 years ago in western universities and think tanks but only really applied and built in China. But that purely Chinese idea - something only China could think of and built is yet to be applied en masse especially in defense.

China’s best weapon against America isn’t the J-20 or a space station - its TikTok and making the next American generation more stupid and obese.

Summary: In a battle for supremacy over the long term between boundless creativity and enforced conformity, one should bet on the former and never the latter, every time.

 

[RescueRanger]

For some silly reason this video comes to mind.

It basically was a bunch of gamers seeing who could get to the end the fastest. It shows the evolution of strategies where people didn't simply assume the first strategy was the best because it worked really well. They thought as far out of the box as they could to beat the record.

Oh, this video brings back memories.

 

[LeGenD]

People talk about innovation but then you see "new" aircraft carriers that look like old US aircraft carriers..."new" helicopters that look like old US helicopters..."new" drones that look like old US drones..."new" rockets that look like old US rockets..."new" this that looks like old US that.

I mean does everybody have to walk up the same trail to get to the top of Mt Everest that Edmund Hillary did. Geez if he didn't scout it out would people be afraid to even start walking? I guarantee you there is an alternate route...just need some risk takers to get off the worn path to check it out.

Why are we the ones making VTOL planes like this

or stuff like this

There is nothing on the level of B-2A Spirit out there, let alone the upcoming B-21 Raider which is said to be 2 decades ahead with secretive technologies from the present - the 1st ELO class aircraft. Mind-boggling.

I am aware of the Chinese H-20 which I am sure will be enormous achievement for the country. But still.

Americans are making huge leaps in various domains as well. They are not sitting idle.

 

[F-22Raptor]

There is nothing on the level of B-2A Spirit out there, let alone the upcoming B-21 Raider which is said to be 2 decades ahead with secretive technologies from the present - the 1st ELO class aircraft. Mind-boggling.

I am aware of the Chinese H-20 which I am sure will be a big achievement for the country. But still.

Americans are making huge leaps in various domains as well. Only fools assume otherwise.

B-21 unveiling in 18 days

 

[jhungary]

I have an example of this, a friend works for Askari Guards as a site manager, retired army officer. He states back in 08 when Chinese Engineers came to Pakistan to work on core drilling for microhydel work, they were provided accommodation in an Army Guest House.

The Chinese brought with them their own TV which they were very proud of, my friend states that one of the managers started teasing the Chinese engineer about the quality of the Chinese TV vs Sony. The engineer, got up, opened the back of his TV and showed some components, and simply said...

You see this part, this part is the same one in my humble Chinese TV as the one you will find in the top of the range Sony TV, you know why? Because we make this part FOR Sony...



That was in 08... China has come a long way; I mean just look at this:

Remember when Chinese smartphones first flooded the Pakistani market and were made with cheap plastics and had awful cameras and poor screen resolution but full of gimmicks such as TV tuners etc... And everyone said Chinese phones will never catch on, and Sony Ericson and Blackberry's were all the rage?

View attachment 896580

Fastforward to 2022:

View attachment 896581

Chinese smartphones now rival traditional flagship brands such as Samsung and Apple.

Similarly, the west has been in the tech sector for many, many years... Their innovation from this:
View attachment 896582

To this:
View attachment 896583

Should not be rubbished so easily because of national bravado.

For me, it's about innovation, not about who is more advance.

The problem is not whether China can match Western Tech level, make no mistake, THEY CAN. The question we should ask is whether or not they can evolve something from the existing norm, because that is what bring us technological gap.

Take the phone and computer example, for example. Notice that both were already existing product with 1 or 2 generation behind, (In the computer case, China is about 3 to 4 generation behind) Bear in mind, China is on par to replicate Western Tech (although I have no idea how good or bad Chinese computer or fold phone is) they failed to look into the concept and get that ahead of the Western norm. Because technology is not dictated by application, but it's user, you can have similar or better application, but as long as you do not have the type of user innovation, you are going to get stuck in the current platform and until someone comes in and evolve the thing for you, that is when you move on. And if China is doing this, they can never be technological advance like the west, they can play catch up, and when you are playing catch up, that's mean you are one step (or more) behind.

I was talking to @Irfan Baloch on the other thread about Chinese Z-20 Chopper and how they match up with Blackhawk. The thing is, Blackhawk Helicopter is an already existed concept, can China make a Blackhawk as good as the American does? Sure, and as I said in that post, they may be able to do it better than what the Original Blackhawk designed for, which is a medium lift helicopter. But then what about the variant?? Unless Chinese have user input like we do, China can never evolve their blackhawk into Pavehawk or Jayhawk or any equivalent version, why? Because China lack this user feedback, and this is that feedback that lead us to evolve something to suit their purpose, the example I use is without CWO4 Cliffton Wolcott crash in Black Hawk Down (The real thing, not the movie) we will not put a rag cage in the Pavehawk to prevent the pilot getting jam, without numerous use of Jolly Green Giant in Vietnam, we will not put a Basket on the side instead using a hoist. I mean, all those are actual application used but was lacking and either someone come back to tell the tale or someone is killed and we need to improve it, that is missing on the Chinese tech front, and without that, China can never catch up to the West, because as I explained, even if they can make a Pavehawk better than the American using their own Z-20, they won't be able to replicate whatever next inclination of Blackhawk helicopter until the American themselves made it.

China's Z-20 helicopter surpasses Black Hawk in technologies, chief designer says

I won't be surprised, since Z-20 is a much newer product than the Black hawk, much more recent technological breakthroughs are available and can be introduced to Z-20 oh please maybe you heard of the saying the apple never falls far from the tree Copy-hawk is just a low quality rip off the...

defence.pk

 

[IblinI]

What a party, everyone is here
Ham, hungry, f22, oldman, beny will joined later.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

For me, it's about innovation, not about who is more advance.

The problem is not whether China can match Western Tech level, make no mistake, THEY CAN.

I remember reading how China spent all this money trying to replicate how jet engine makers made their metal turbine blades.

Not long after they figured it out jet engine makers started switching to ceramic blades as they found them to be a better blade strategy.

Shouldn't there be some lesson here about trudging the same well-worn path up Mt Everest?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Oh, this video brings back memories.

The mentality isn't "I'm going to run your same path and try and get it done a fraction of a second quicker".

It's "okay what the hell do I have to do to get the end the quickest...I'll try every crazy idea i can imagine!".

 

[jhungary]

I remember reading how China spent all this money trying to replicate how jet engine makers made their metal turbine blades.

Not long after they figured it out jet engine makers started switching to ceramic blades as they found them to be a better blade strategy.

Shouldn't there be some lesson here about trudging the same well-worn path up Mt Everest?

A lot of trade secret was missing/overlooked when someone try to copy it

You don't need to compare really high tech stuff like jet engine. Even low tech stuff like a gas mask, you can see they didn't put a lot of effort into making a gas mask that suitable for the troop. I mean Gasmask essentially is a rubber mask with a filter, not much of a high tech component on them.

This is the PLA current gasmask called FMJ-08

Set aside the uncanny look of FMJ-08 to the British Avon S-10/FM-12 series mask, (Which is as old as I am)

This is not ergonomics....Anyone who wear a 2-hole gasmask (Or US M17 or M40, both of which I wore when I was in the Army) know you have zero situation awareness and you can't see shit at night because of the nose piece stuck out in the middle, which mean you have a tiny vision forward, yes, this may be what our eyes were located, but unlike our eyes, you don't have the curve of your eyeball, and not to mention the black plastic that is going to block your vision around the visual cone. This has been the feedback since 1980s when these mask were issued, and we fought in 1991 wearing M17, 2003 wearing M40 and that's probably the last straw and now we (US and NATO) moved on these and M50 we use have a one piece eyepiece which is the norm now, along with dual filter. Because you just can't breath with one, as that restrict your air flow.

Notice this is a very non-advance thing, which mean you don't need state of the art technology to make a respirator or gasmask, yet the Chinese design is seriously outdated to a point I would have imagine their troop would have issue fighting wearing those as much as we did back in 1990s and 2000s.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

A lot of trade secret was missing/overlooked when someone try to copy it

You don't need to compare really high tech stuff like jet engine. Even low tech stuff like a gas mask, you can see they didn't put a lot of effort into making a gas mask that suitable for the troop. I mean Gasmask essentially is a rubber mask with a filter, not much of a high tech component on them.

This is the PLA current gasmask called FMJ-08

View attachment 896590

Set aside the uncanny look of FMJ-08 to the British Avon S-10/FM-12 series mask, (Which is as old as I am)

View attachment 896592

This is not ergonomics....Anyone who wear a 2-hole gasmask (Or US M17 or M40, both of which I wore when I was in the Army) know you have zero situation awareness and you can't see shit at night because of the nose piece stuck out in the middle, which mean you have a tiny vision forward, yes, this may be what our eyes were located, but unlike our eyes, you don't have the curve of your eyeball, and not to mention the black plastic that is going to block your vision around the visual cone. This has been the feedback since 1980s when these mask were issued, and we fought in 1991 wearing M17, 2003 wearing M40 and that's probably the last straw and now we (US and NATO) moved on these and M50 we use have a one piece eyepiece which is the norm now, along with dual filter. Because you just can't breath with one, as that restrict your air flow.

View attachment 896591

Notice this is a very non-advance thing, which mean you don't need state of the art technology to make a respirator or gasmask, yet the Chinese design is seriously outdated to a point I would have imagine their troop would have issue fighting wearing those as much as we did back in 1990s and 2000s.

So do we thank paintballers or motocrossers?

paintball mask

Motocross mask

 

[jhungary]

So do we thank paintballers or motocrossers?

Yes, especially the paintballer/airsofter.

IIRC the guy who redesign the mask is an avid Air Softer, you know before the M50, almost all Air Soft Mask looks like M50. That's why the guy come up with the idea of using one single piece instead of 2 eyes hole.

I mean, this is stuff people tend to ignore, but I would say Gas Mask or MOPP stuff are quite essential for any army fighting any battle, and they manage to this is like that, you can imagine how advance tech would be like.

 

[Mista]

Over 3 days continuously, more than 300 Chinese fighters confronted over 100 US fighters in East China Sea

Both Chinese and English translation say sorties, but OP can somehow interprete it as number of fighters to make a point which he has already assumed lol.

 

[etylo]

Both Chinese and English translation say sorties, but OP can somehow interprete it as number of fighters to make a point which he has already assumed lol.

Yeah, i rechecked it, it should be sorties, no assumptions here.

 

[Beast]

there are always exceptions to the rule.
like it or not, Western technology is way ahead of any other technology in the world.

So when some buys western hardware which are the one may fall into this category? Are you saying, its a big risk buying one? Plus their price is not cheap but dont gurantee it sure work. I will avoid western products if possible.

Maybe 20 years ago, I will accept western technology ahead of rest of the world. But now is China and western technology spearhead the globe high end technology.

now you going to list me accidents and failures? like I said there are always exceptions to the rule. Space Shuttle was ahead of its time.
it made so many missions successfully speaks of the ingenuity and technical prowess of Western engineers and scientists its a shame that such tragedies happened but the causes were found and lessons learned. even the F22 initially met accident but now its the undisputed father of all jet fighters and can make any rival airforce its bitch... wait why am I even debating that.

B737 max is not accident. Its a decision made for cut corners. It open a can of worms. Who know there may be more such project which base on profit above anything which havent uncovered. And we are talking about a big organization like Boeing.

 

[The Accountant]

I got now clue what these two acronyms mean.
and I wont even bother. for me Western technology means perfection, quality and durability.

talking about technology. the only thing from the East that has stood its ground in front of West is Japanese (and recently South Korean) automotive industry other than that a lot of promise and hot air but nothing ground breaking that will smash Western technology to oblivion.

Then u r quite outdated my friend ... Even chinese auto technology is doing very well and reliable and establishing market in Middle east and USA